Interview with Yunus Shaik

Interview with Apartheid Activist

Yunus Shaik

Date: 3 June 2007
Audio appliance: video camera

Name: Yunus Shaik
Date of birth:
Occupation: Labour lawyer

Questions:

Can you tell me something about your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance?

Since I had never experienced, and was not around during Apartheid times can you tell me what it was about?

How did you feel about the government and its laws at that time?

What were your feelings towards white supremacy?

Were you ever arrested or detained, if you have please elaborate?

Can you tell me of an experience which is still vibrant in your memory related to torture or anything?

Were you a member of the military wing of the ANC if you were what was your experience like?

How did you react to the laws such as the pass law and group areas act?


What were some of the most gruesome tortures people encountered; did you see or experience any, example the neck lacing?

Did you ever have a run-in with the law and what was the experience like?

Have any of your fellow activists reached high status among government and do you still keep in touch with them?

Would you like to add on any point that would interest others?

What future do we as Indian youth have in this country?

What is your message for the people of South Africa today?






Interview:

Aishah
Q: Can you tell me something about your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance?

Yunus
A: I grew up in Kliptown, and Kliptown was a multicultural mixed neighbourhood, quite early in life I had experienced living with people of different religions, different race, different class background and our house was across Freedom Square today. So quite young I had the imprint in my mind of a multicultural society. But also my grandmother was white. The idea of separation between the races was for me quite strange, so to speak. At any rate we went down to Durban when I was about 5 or so and shortly after that my mother died, and so I was raised and so were my brothers by our domestic worker, who was African. I was raised and brought up by an African woman. Now the difficulties we would have were many. But one of them that stuck out in my mind was, there use to be a thing called the Black Jacks. The Black Jacks use to run around neighbourhoods, weather they were Indian or White neighbourhoods or the town. And their job was to see that African people were not in the city after a certain hour in the day. It was a kind of curfew. So by 6 o’clock all African people would have to be out of the city and they had to be in their townships, and if they were caught in the city they were arrested if they did not have a permit. It was quite a problem because sometimes, Anna would be carrying my brother on her back, he was about 1 years-old. And the Black Jacks would come and attack. We all like scattering all over the show, trying either to hide Anna or grab my brother. These incidents when I was quite young lead to have quite a shape on my mind. My family also was quite a political family so these are the issues we will talk about.

Aishah
Q: Since I had never experienced, and was not around during Apartheid times can you tell me what it was about?

Yunus
A: Apartheid had many parts to it, one part was around property, black people could not own property and in the whole of South Africa the entire black population lived on 13% of the land. That was one problem. The second problem was education; the government would spend R100 for a white child but only R13 on a black child. As a result of that there was a huge gap in education, in skills and so on. The next kind of problems we had were job reservation. Only certain kind of jobs could be performed by black people and for the most part these jobs were quite lineal. And then over time they got to become artisans and so on. That was another aspect of the problem. Then of course there was the notion that black people could not vote, participate in the elections of governments and that itself is a problem. But related to all of this was really a repressive and oppressive circumstance on black people in general but more particularly with African people.


Aishah
Q: How did you feel about the government and its laws at that time?

Yunus
A: These laws offended my own beliefs, and my beliefs are rooted in an Islamic outlook. Our family had quite an Islamic outlook, so it offends our Islamic outlook in many ways. Islam does not permit and nor is it tolerant of any kind of racism. But it does not also permit any kind of class based society. So it was an offence to our religious beliefs, it was also an offence to our personal dignity. In offended me in many practical ways for example, because I had a white grandmother I am classified as a Cape, Malay/Indian. Now which school do I go to, do I go to an Indian school or do I go to a Coloured school, and these problems played me all my school years, my University years and so on. You had to get a permit to go to an Indian school and so on. A good example is that I use to live next door to an Indian school, now I want to go to school but the headmaster said no you can’t come to school, because they see your birth certificate first and it says Cape, Malay/ Indian whatever that means. Now you can’t go to school. So you can not go to that school unless you duck under the desks when the inspectors come. It was these series of things that made you seem different and so on. Naturally it was you could say your taqdeer, you were driven into resistance.

Aishah
Q: What were your feelings towards white supremacy?

Yunus
A: Agh, Islam doesn’t even acknowledge that, we don’t even acknowledge that. We think of it as rubbish, because our ideas of civilization are shaped by the Islamic experience. Now my father is quite schooled in Islam and he was quite aware early in life that medicine, even the idea of democracy had its first birth in Islam. Human Right revolution took place, was with Prophet Muhammad ((P.B.U.H). He was the first of the revolutionaries to bring about social change in society. The idea of supremacy when you come from a tradition that spans hundreds of years, that is rich in all aspects of life, from art, to medicine, to engineering and we are in a sense Indian people as well. We come from a civilization that has three, four thousand years. When white civilization was in their dark ages, you can find castles and advancement in Islamic civilization. The idea that some boertjie would think he is superior in that circumstance was just ridiculous.

Aishah
Q: Were you ever arrested or detained, if you have please elaborate?

Yunus
A: I first got detained I think when I was a student in 1978; I got detained for two weeks. And then in 1980 I got detained again from April till August. And then I went in to detention again in 1984 and again in 1985, so lots of times in and out of prison. I seem to have spent most of my youth in jail.

Aishah
Q: Can you tell me of an experience which is still vibrant in your memory related to torture or anything?

Yunus
A: I don’t think school children should worry about all that. But I am a victim of torture. In 1984 the ANC was going to hold a conference called the Kaw-Moye conference that was going to define the strategies and tactics the ANC was going to adopt for the years to follow. They sent in a senior leader to come and consult with other democratic organizations in the country to get their views on a range of issues. His name was Ebrahim Ismail Ebrahim, and our job was to house him and look after him, arrange the consultation and return him safely back outside the country. The security branch became aware of his presence and they captured me and my brother Mo, they would torture us in order to say where he is. They thought he was on a military mission here to bomb up the place, because there was a whole lot of bombs’ going of at the same time. So that was one period of torture and it featured in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Mind you, most of the senior leaders of the ANC were Muslims. The Muslim community has got a long and wonderful tradition of fighting oppression.

Aishah
Q: Were you a member of the military wing of the ANC if you were what your experience was like?

Yunus
A: Yes, I was a member of the military wing called ‘Imkonto-we-sizwe’ (MK); it means ‘the spear of the nation’. Our experiences in the military wing of the ANC would range from counting intelligence to logistics and so on. It was the most trying front of the struggle; the struggle was ranged on three fronts. One front was called the ‘military struggle’. The next was called the ‘mass struggle. The third was called the ‘diplomatic struggle’. So the three spheres of struggle the ‘Imkonto-we-sizwe’ was the most difficult because if you were caught most of the MK soldiers were killed. Some would go and stand trial and if you were sent to prison, you got quite long sentences from 15 to 20 years and so on. So military work was difficult it was trial.

Aishah
Q: How did you react to the laws such as the pass law and group areas act?

Yunus
A: In general I think all African people, all black people rejected it. And bitterly, for example with Indian people you couldn’t buy property wherever you did.
So you only had a few Indian areas, and because there was so little land available to the Indian people the prices of the land was just sky rocket. An ordinary family struggled to buy a house, and if they did by a house, your house could have been expropriated, meaning it could have been taken away by the state if it was in the wrong area. We had all these problems. In general these things were hated by the people.

Aishah
Q: What were some of the most gruesome tortures people encountered; did you see or experience any, example the neck lacing?


Yunus
A: Neck lacing was a reaction at some mass meeting or rally or something. Someone would be known as a spy and others would throw a tyre around his or her neck and set him alight. It was horrible. I remember one instance in Durban, we were in a March and someone identified someone as an Impempi, meaning a spy. This crowd about 50 or 100 people started to turn on him; they would hit him with like iron and sticks and so on. It was unbearable to watch. My brother Mo and I just threw our bodies over him and tried to lead him to safety. But it is an unforgivable barbaric reaction of people to collaboration. So you’ve had gruesome stories, on the other hand the state use to infiltrate and subvert ordinary human beings because either he was gay or in debt. They would offer him money to spy on people. In this way it turned people against each other, so the tactics the National Party and white was using was equally horrible, and that made people to become spies. They were not spying out of their own volition but be that as it may, it was the time and the tactic. The reaction to the tactic was as bad as the tactic itself. But it was the time of war.

Aishah
Q: Did you ever have a run-in with the law and what was the experience like?

Yunus
A: Of course, we had many run-ins with the law; just to go to school was a run-in with the law, just to go to University was a run-in with the law. But in general we had contempt for the law. This is not the Quraan; this is a most despicable set of rules. So to have a run-in with the law is to be on the right course, because you were trying to change the law. When laws become unjust, you should be able to challenge these laws. The whole idea of a ‘Holy War’, the whole idea of resistance against unjust laws infact finds it’s origin in Islam. The notion that you must fight against oppression. To fight these laws is to walk in the path of Islam.

Aishah
Q: Have any of your fellow activists reached high status among government and do you still keep in touch with them?

Yunus
A: Yes, like my commander was Jacob Zuma, and yes I do still keep in touch with him. And Mac Maharaja and Thabo Mbeki, most of these guys. We almost grew up in the struggle together and we do keep in touch with each other.

Aishah
Q: Would you like to add on any point that would interest others?

Yunus
A: Yes. There is no point in time where you would find a society that is perfect, and so towards South Africa. In the first struggle, the struggle was to try and create laws that are equal based, meaning you acknowledge the rights of people and the struggle now, is to ensure that governments policy are pro poor. They are supportive of poor people. Your additions now to the struggle are around how to avoid the abuse of power. Whether it is Thabo Mbeki wanting to run for the third term or using the organs of the state to attack his political opponents. Those are examples of abuse of the law or abuse of power; these are struggles of today that are still relevant.

Aishah
Q: What future do we as Indian youth have in this country?

Yunus
A: I think you would have the same future as I had. I think Indian youth presently have more of an opportunity to play in society. At a level of jobs, the labour market seems to have a huge potential for qualified Indian people. So at a level of jobs there is an enormous potential. There’s also great potential in business and so on. But I don’t think people define their life whether they Indian or not. Our society looks at everyone as equal. So regardless of whether you Indian or African and so on, you would still get these opportunities. Alhamdurillah. I think Indian youth have got some challenge to play, and I would be hopeful that they would become more community spirited, community minded engaging with the troubles of the time.

Aishah
Q: What is your message for the people of South Africa today?

Yunus
A: I think we carrying a continuing burden to promote an advanced struggle for human rights. If I could give you an example that would make sense to you. From the time of the Hijrah our Prophet (P.B.U.H) fought to do two things. The first thing he fought for or rather against was the idea of idol worshipping. But although he fought against that he fought for these things, equality, an egalitarian, meaning we should not spend all our time amending huge fortunes of wealth, we should use wealth and take care of the poor. He also fought for the idea that we should take care of the orphans, widows and so on. He fought also that your society to be constructed to such a way that all people contribute and participate and by consensus take decisions that affect them. That is what we may call democracy. So these are things he fought for, and that is what he fought against. When I ask myself what are the challenges facing us they are the same challenges that faced our Prophet (P.B.U.H) in his time which is to eradicate the poverty, to take care of the vunrable people in society. These things have not gone away. We can’t spend all our days in the mosque reading our salaah as we should, but we should equally spend time fixing the society. When I think about the Prophet (P.B.U.H) life he had two concerns. His first concern was his relationship with God (Allah) and calling the Ummah to pay attention to that relationship. But the other side he was also calling people to pay attention to the relationship with each other, so this duality, our relationship with God, our relationship with each other remains the burden and the duty of the Ummah to address in each time and I think that challenge continues with us today and its not good enough for us to say African people are not Muslims, we should not worry about them, infact all the people were not Muslims until the Prophet (P.B.U.H) converted them. So the Prophet (P.B.U.H) did not distinguish between who were Muslims and who were not. He attended to the people and I think that is the central challenge that remains with us to this day and in this place. We are surrounded by a sea of poverty in South Africa. That explains why we are having all these fights with Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki. Jacob Zuma says we should change our policies so that we address the poor and don’t be so concerned with the BE policies that make millions for a few black people. We should be concerned about the millions of black people that are living in abject poverty, so that fight as you can see take place between them continues to this day.

Added on information:
Yunus
You asked me a very interesting question about some kind of experience, of the experience of torture. To me the most tearing experience of torture was when I was in the torture chamber and they have five or so security Bloch people would torture and put a bag over my head cutting off my oxygen supply as they were hitting me on my body. So what carried me through that entire experience was to be able to zikr. What I learnt in the torture chamber was that what it means to say, Ashaduallahillahaillallah. Although by enchanting that I learnt over time as I became an older man there is truly no God but God (Allah) and in difficult times making zikr and reading your salaah is absolutely critically important. It gives you strength and defeats your enemies. Even when I was in torture then I was able to survive. So to you who are growing up, I really, I erge you to remember your salaah to zikr often as you can, these things help you as life marches on.

Jazakallah















Research: www.google.co.za

April 19, 2000
Amnesty Decision on torture of ANC activist
The Amnesty Committee of the TRC has granted amnesty to Durban's C.R. Swart Security Policeman, Christo Nel for his role in the torture of Yunus Shaik an ANC activist in July 1985.
Nel was based at the C.R. Swart Square when he detained Shaik and other members of his family.
During his testimony before the Amnesty Committee on April 10, 2000 in at Pinetown Magistrate's Court, Nel said he had received instructions to fetch Shaik from the cells at C.R. Swart Square where he was being detained and take him to the offices of the Security Branch in the building.
During the interrogation, Shaik was tortured and Nel was instructed to assist by holding one of Shaik's arms during such torture.
Shaik was present at the hearing and represented himself. He made a statement in which he detailed the consequences both to himself and his family of the detentions. Shaik indicated that he was not opposing the application and confirmed Nel's account as being a full disclosure of what transpired.
As the Amnesty Committee, we are satisfied that Nel has made a full disclosure of all relevant facts. We are satisfied that the applicant has satisfied the requirements of the Act and grant amnesty in relation to torture of Yunus Shaik during 1985 at C.R. Swart Square, Durban.
Transcipt of the matter is available on request.
Inquiries: Mbulelo Sompetha 082 452 7870.

STATEMENT BY THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: CHANGE OF VENUE FOR AMNESTY HEARINGS IN DURBAN
Journalists are advised that the Pinetown Magistrate's Court will, as from January 19, be our venue for different sets of amnesty applications by former Durban security policemen currently being held at the Durban Christian Centre.
Matters on roll include an amnesty application of Christo Nel, for his role in the torture of Mr Yunus Shaik in 1985. Police tortured Shaik because they thought he was keeping a car which belonged to Mr Ebraihim Ismail Ebrahim. They claimed the car was being used to transport weapons from Swaziland to South Africa.
Other matters will be announced in due course.