Interview with Azhar Cachalia

Interview with Apartheid Activist

Azhar Cachalia

Date: 10 July 2007
Audio appliance: video camera

Name: Azhar Cachalia
Date of birth: 26/06/1956
Occupation: Judge of the Appeal Court
E-mail: cachalia@icon.co.za

Questions:

Can you tell me something about your childhood and at what age did you realize you were living in an abnormal society?

How did you get involved on politics or political resistance?

Did you ever have a run-in with the law at that time?

What was your attitude like towards policies after those run-ins or bad experiences?

Did you ever imagine a change would have come in your lifetime?

What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an apartheid activist?

Do you still have contact with your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?

Were you ever arrested or detained?

The torture you experienced while detained was it excessive?

Were you an MK (Imkonto-we-sizwe), which is a member of the military wing of the ANC at the time?

Did you feel the efforts of your struggle were in vain at that time?

How did you feel about those in power at the time, that is what did you think of white supremacy at the time?

How did you react to the many different laws e.g. the pass law, group areas act etc?

Did you ever hear or see neck lacing that people who spied for the apartheid state were burnt alive by a tyre placed over them?

What do you think of the current democracy, is it what you had foreseen?

What message would you like to share with the people of South Africa today?

Finally, are you hopeful of South Africa’s future?

Interview:

Aishah
Q: Can you tell me something about your childhood and at what age did you realize you were living in an abnormal society?

Azhar
A: I was born in Scotland. The reason that I was born in Scotland was that my father went over to study medicine in Adenbera. That was after he was not able to get in at WITS University. The reason for that as he explained to me was, there was a quota at South African Universities even at WITS, and they would allow only a certain number of black students to study medicine. So he couldn’t get in and went abroad. He was married here, and then he and my mum went overseas. I was born there with my three brothers. I suppose that was the first, when we first understood why I was born in another country. As I grew older my father explained what that was about and then I also came from what they would call a politicised family. My fathers grand uncles name was Ahmed Cachalia, a close associative of Mahat Magandi. In the early part of the century he was involved in opposing policies, it was long before the National Party came in power in 1948. Talking about the 1920’s and 1930’s, efforts that were made by the government to discriminate against black people in general but in this case Indian people and Indian traders. He was involved in many of those struggles. So I suppose that story was told over different generations. After Ahmed Cachalia, Ahmed’s two sons, Yusuf Cachalia and Molvi Cachalia. Yusuf Cachalia became the secretary of the Congress Movement together with Walter Sisulu in the 1980’s and he was very instrumental in organizing the Defiance Campaign. The Defiance Campaign was aimed at 6 apartheid laws that included the group areas act, the mixed marriages act and a few others. He was involved in that, he also became a very close friend of Nelson Mandela’s. That was the family I grew up in and we would constantly hear stories. I think specifically of my uncle, Yusuf Cachalia. He was banned in 1964. Effectively he was not only prohibited from been involved in any political activity but he was also restricted socially, that means he could not associate with two or three people at the same time. He left for work; he was allowed to be out of his house from 7 in the morning till 6 in the evening. He was house arrested, so at night he was not allowed to go out and so in weekends he would stay at home. So we were told what was happening, why uncle Yusuf can’t come out of the house. I suppose I had not much of a choice.

Aishah
Q: How did you get involved on politics or political resistance?

Azhar
A: Certainly in my generation, of me and many like I was that what happened in 1960 had a very deep effect on many of us. I just remember the country was burning and it was a strange thing because there was a mixture of fear because you didn’t know what was happening. People were burning things down and so on. On the one hand it is true people were fearful. But on the other hand one felt that year was very difficult of very serious resistance. Even though it had really started with school children. It was something that had touched many of us and I suppose at that stage in 1976 I was just about 19 or 20 years old. As a result of that I and others in my community got together and we formed a student organization called ‘Benoni Student Movement’. I lived in Benoni at the time and also when I was in University I joined student organizations there. In a sense that is what mattered interest and involvement at the time.

Aishah
Q: Did you ever have a run-in with the law at that time?

Azhar
A: I first experienced a run in with the law in June 1978. I and my brother and some other students in Benoni had distributed leaflets at the local school. The leaflets had called on students and really Indian learners at the time. Infact it never asks them to do anything it just said they must remember what had happened two years ago in 1976. This is what’s happening in the country and it’s very important that they understand that on this day, the 16th of June. Any they had discovered that I and many others had been involved in distributing this. So they arrested me and few others including my younger brother Firoze. We spent just over a week in jail and they treated us quite badly, certainly initially they treated us badly. So when you talk about run in with the law that was my first encounter with the security police.

Aishah
Q: What was your attitude like towards policies after those run-ins or bad experiences?

Azhar
A: It is a strange thing, I suppose people have different reactions, different responses to an encounter with the security police. I don’t want to sound too brave, obviously we were afraid and those sort of things. But it is a strange thing when they push you like that and you can have one of two responses, you can’t be the same so you almost have a choice. Your choice is that you change your life, ignore everything and you get on with your life or you confront what was happening to you. In my case we decided to fight back. Twenty, thirty years later it might sound brave but we weren’t deliberately been brave or stupid or anything like that. I mean when somebody humiliates you, you going to fight back. That is your natural response. The response that isn’t natural is to run away. So what I did was quite natural.

Aishah
Q: Did you ever imagine a change would have come in your lifetime?

Azhar
A: No, I actually didn’t. I once gave somebody an interview and this person wrote a book on the 1980’s. The title of the book is called ‘Beyond Our Wildest Dreams’. When we started in about 1980, 1981, there was this massive army well organized even though backward in many ways. It had a strong self-belief and was very determined to crush any resistance to apartheid and to white rule. I did not think, which ultimately happened they would simply collapse, run away and disappear, that was not going to happen. If we were able to mount sufficient pressure on them in the country and then supported by the international community, we would create enough pressure to at least force them to come and negotiate about the future of the country. I did not think the end would come as quickly as it did. I always believed whether it was my time or beyond that, that there would come a time were they would not be able to hold on any longer.

Aishah
Q: What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an apartheid activist?

Azhar
A: There were many, but the strange one which had the biggest impact on me, ironically was not what the apartheid government or the white government did to me. But it was an incident which I had with Mrs Wini Mandela. What happened was that she had gotten involved with a group of youngsters in the 1980’s. In effect she was responsible for the kidnapping of a young boy and ultimately that boy was killed. The court had found her not guilty. But I and my colleges had spoken outwardly against her, there were many in black community opposed to what we did. It’s a sort of thing that you don’t criticise your own, you criticise others. We felt if we were going to make the society a decent one then it’s not good enough to speak against your opponents. You got to speak against your own people when they act in a way that is contrary to what the struggle is about. The struggle was for a society that would protect human rights and when we ourselves started violating people’s rights then that is something we ought to fight against. So that is the incident that comes, but there are many, but that is the one that comes to mind immediately.

Aishah
Q: Do you still have contact with your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?

Azhar
A: Yes I do. Some may be in government others in business. I keep in touch with my colleges, my comrades from those days.

Aishah
Q: Were you ever arrested or detained, except for that one week?

Azhar
A: I have been arrested about five times over in 1980’s. On three of those occasions, one for a week, another time about three weeks, on the third occasion about two months. That was during the State of Emergency Regulations. I had three detentions and addition to that I was banned few times, that means I would be prohibited by the head minister of police. We don’t do that today because it would be unconstitutional and illegal if the police did that. Those days they could do that, which could ban you. That meant I could not join or participate in activities of various organizations, such as the United Democratic Front and Transvaal Indian Congress. I could not participate in any of those organizations. I was restricted in a number of gatherings I attended.

Aishah
Q: The torture you experienced while detained was it excessive?

Azhar
A: Torture has a particular legal meaning. So if they slap you that is not torture. Torture is really when they inflict unbearable pain on you, either for the purpose of extracting information or for some other reason. During one of my detentions I was put in the boot of a car and driven away. They took me from my parent’s home and they drove me down a side road and they said I must get out and get into the boot of the car. It was quite frightening. Then they put me in the boot of the car and drove off and I’m like were are these people taking me to. Then ultimately they arrived at a mind dump, so they opened the boot of the car and marched me to the top of it and started hitting me. One of the things they use to do is called hooding; you saw those pictures of what happened in Abu Gurayr in Iraq. The Americans were torturing detainee’s infact that is what they did to me. They put a bag on my head and choked and hit me. That was on one occasion, on the other occasions they always threatened to do something but they never inflict any bodily harm. It was not because they were nice or anything, it’s because well I was well known after my first detention so sometimes they a bit careful when you well known. They think you have a big mouth and you would speak if they did something cruel. They a bit careful, maybe that was the reason I’m not quite sure why they didn’t hit me the other times. It’s not that I deserved a hiding.

Q: Were you an MK (Imkonto-we-sizwe), which is a member of the military wing of the ANC at the time?

A: No, I never joined the MK. In part I suppose I could have, there were people who were braver than I was who joined. But I also believed that it wasn’t so much passive resistance but I think what I did believe was that it was very important that we tried to what I would called defend the legal space that which we were working. So that it was very important that we tried to pursue more and more people to be involved in non-violent opposition because when they force you into violence you become smaller and smaller groups, lose your impact. So I was never opposed or acted to have a principle opposition to those who decided to take up arms. But I thought certainly for my own contribution, to avoid taking up arms as long as possible.

Aishah
Q: Did you feel the efforts of your struggle were in vain at that time?

Azhar
A: No, well I think you go through moments of weakness. When you alone in a cell on a Saturday night and it’s cold. You looking outside and the rest of the world seem to be going on with their business. You sitting in this cell all alone and you wonder, is it worth it. You wouldn’t be human if you didn’t have doubts of weakness. So yes I did have my moments of weakness. But mercifully I think my moments of strength out numbered my moments of weakness. So at the time I never thought what I was doing was wrong, hopeless or not worth it.



Aishah
Q: How did you feel about those in power at the time, that is what did you think of white supremacy at the time?

Azhar
A: Let’s make a difference between those in power and white supremacy. I always believed that you see that in all political systems where there is oppression or exploitation, they do it for economical reasons. They don’t really do it because they believe you are inferior. Or that George Bush believes that Muslims are inferior, they do that because they have certain political goals and certain political interests. It is true that part of the process of then justifying why they are doing this because you may be inferior. They create rationalism and justifications in their own minds that you may be inferior. I knew that in fighting white supremacy and fighting against them I was really fighting against a system rather than the individuals who had prejudices. I realized once we change the system then we didn’t want to replace in a sense bad white people with bad black people because then you have not changed anything. You have just changed the colour of oppression. Obviously if somebody hits you or is ugly to you the individual, you don’t have a completely neutral feeling, he is not a robot who is hitting you or abusing you or swearing you. You have difficult relationships with those people and you may even dislike them. I can’t say I hated nor had strong feelings against white people for example. I never felt that way. I knew what I was fighting; I was fighting a political system not whites or an individual.

Aishah
Q: How did you react to the many different laws e.g. the pass law, group areas act etc?

Azhar
A: Where ever I could I broke those laws. Indian people were not allowed for example to enter African areas without a permit. I would go into those areas, occasionally I got arrested for that. It’s not like I could have respected any of those laws. When you say how I reacted well I despised the laws and I knew we had to change them. I was not neutral. When they banned me, they detained me under the Internal Security Act; those I thought were quite despicable laws. I was quite determined to oppose those laws and fight them.

Aishah
Q: Did you ever hear or see neck lacing that people who spied for the apartheid state were burnt alive by a tyre placed over them?

Azhar
A: No, I never saw one myself, mercifully not. I saw video’s of it. I saw it as awful and terrible.

Aishah
Q: What do you think of the current democracy, is it what you had foreseen?

Azhar
A: I think that to take a balanced view of it, I think in general it is true we have made a lot of progress. I think we are better of as a country today then we ever were. We have removed rationally discrimitary laws. That people who were excluded from politically and economical power have access to it. I think there is much we can be grateful for; I think it is important that we record that. At the same time I often feel that many of us have betrayed our goals. One of our goals was to create a non-racial society. I see a lot of racism among white people. But there is a lot of racism among all communities. That is not only in the white community it may be in the community that you and I live in, it could be in other communities. So I see a lot of people. I often look at what people in the government, in the ruling party, they manipulate race and ethnically for their own political ends. When they do that I think they are behaving no differently to the way the apartheid government behaved. That undermines our goal on racial society. Many of us have lost our way, we tend to be greedy and materialistic and that means that we, not realizing that we contribute to making the society unstable. There are too many people that are poor and under privileged and they see that those who have political power, those who are connected and who have friends that are connected are people who are making the money are doing very well at least in their minds. So they feel angry, resentful and excluded. There are some very serious questions we must ask ourselves. If I think down 13 years, down our democracy I worry about, I certainly would have hoped that we would have gone further down the road in dealing with those problems. I don’t think we are doing enough.

Aishah
Q: What message would you like to share with the people of South Africa today?

Azhar
A: For me the most important message is that we must never forget what happened and that is not because we must exact revenge. But we must understand what the struggle was about. I talk to you and you talk to me and we must understand the values that we sort to uphold. For me the message is not that we were fighting for political power, we were fighting to uphold certain values. Non-rationalism, protection of human rights those were the values that informed, caused us the way we felt. My message is that in whatever we do today we must remember and continue to be guided by the same principles and some values in the new South Africa. Those of us who fought for the new South Africa believed in then. You can play different roles, you can be an activist but you can be a doctor, a molana, a lawyer, a teacher, you can be whatever you want to. I think there are certain basic values that exist across the society. If we defend those values then we have hope to build a better society. That would be my message.

Aishah
Q: Finally, are you hopeful of South Africa’s future?

Azhar
A: I am always hopeful, again sometimes I feel pessimistic when I see some of the things happening. I see a lot of inequality, I see a lot of crime, and I see a lot of massive social problems that distresses me. But I’m always hopeful because there maybe people like you who are concerned about these issues. Hopefully you want to live in a better society. I’m hopeful there would always be people who will carry the torch, the beacon. There are things that improve the society. I think there are more good people and committed people in the society than those who are not. Thank You

Thank You

Done by: Aishah Moga

Research: www.google.co.za


SECRETARY FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY
Azhar Cachalia was born in Scotland in 1956. He attended school in Scotland and in Benoni (Gauteng) and matriculated at Damelin College in Johannesburg in 1974. Between 1975 and 1980, he studied at the University of Durban Westville and at Wits University, having changed his course of study from science to the arts.
In 1987 he was active in the Benoni Students' Movement and was detained for the first time. In 1981 he was elected Vice-President of the Black Students' Society at Wits and was detained, with his brother Firoz (now a member of the Gauteng Provincial Legislature), for three weeks. Immediately thereafter he was served with a banning order which confined him to the magisterial district of Benoni for 2 years. When the banning order was lifted in June 1983, he was elected to the executive of the Transvaal Indian Congress (TIC), and thereafter held office in the United Democratic Front (UDF) at provincial and national level until 1990. He was both banned and detained for his involvement in political activities
In 1983, Azhar graduated with an LLB from Wits University. He was admitted as an attorney in 1986.
In 1986, Azhar was detained for six weeks under the State of Emergency Regulations, and, a few months later, served with another restriction order. In 1987 he was detained twice by the Security Branch of the SAP. In 1988, a new restriction order prohibited him from participating in the activities of the UDF.
In 1988, Azhar joined the Johannesburg law firm Cheadle, Thompson and Haysom, where, until recently he was its managing partner. He is one of the co-authors of "Fundamental Human Rights in the New Constitution" and he holds a Higher Diploma in Income Tax Law with Fink Haysom and H Cheadle. He was also the firm's managing partner.
In June 1994, Azhar became a member of Minister Mufamadi's Interim Advisory Team. He worked as a technical expert on the Constitutional Assembly theme committee on Security and Defence, and convened the team which drafted the new Police Act.
He is married to Welfare Director General, Dr Leila Patel, and they have two daughters. His father Dr Ismail Cachalia is a member of the National Assembly.
Azhar Cachalia was appointed as Secretary for Safety and Security on 8 January 1996. In this capacity he is the Minister for Safety and Security's chief policy advisor. He is also responsible for ensuring proper Government overseeing over policing matters. The implementation of the National Crime Prevention Strategy falls within his sphere of responsibility.


"Beyond Our Wildest Dreams"The United Democratic Front and the Transformation of South Africa

by Ineke van Kessel
384 pages, 9 b&w illus. and 3 maps • 6 1/8 x 9 1/4
Cloth ISBN 0-8139-1861-8 $55.00 • Paper ISBN 0-8139-1868-5 $22.50
As anyone who lived through that decade knows, the 1980s in South Africa were marked by protest, violent confrontation, and international sanctions. Internally, the country saw a bewildering growth of grassroots organizations--including trade unions, civic associations in the black townships, student and other youth organizations, church-based groups, and women's movements--many of which operated under the umbrella of the United Democratic Front (UDF). "Beyond Our Wildest Dreams" explores the often conflicted relationship between the UDF's large-scale resistance to apartheid and its everyday struggles at the local level.
In hindsight, the UDF can be seen as a transitional front, preparing the ground for leaders of the liberation movement to return from exile or prison and take over power. But the founding fathers of the UDF initially had far more modest ambitions. As Azhar Cachalia, one of its core activists, later explained: "Look, when we founded the UDF, we had never in our wildest dreams expected that events would take off in the way they did. What happened was beyond everybody's expectations."
Interviews with Cachalia and other leading personalities in the UDF examine the organization's workings at the national level, while stories of ordinary people, collected by the author, illuminate the grassroots activism so important to the UDF's success. Even in South Africa, writes Ineke van Kessel, who covered the anti-apartheid movement as a journalist, resistance was not the obvious option for ordinary citizens. Van Kessel shows how these people were mobilized into forming a radical social movement that developed a highly flexible and innovative form of resistance that ultimately ended apartheid.
Reviews
"Based on thorough, meticulous, and discerning scholarship, van Kessel's book shows a mature understanding of South Africa's political dynamics. Outstandingly perceptive while broadly sympathetic, van Kessel achieves an admirable objectivity regarding the foibles and weaknesses of the actors in her story. She succeeds in conveying the real texture of politics on the ground."
--Gail M. Gerhart, American University in Cairo
The Author
Ineke van Kessel is a researcher at the African Studies Centre in Leiden, The Netherlands.